11:29 a.m.
current colleague wants to set up as complete a podman-based
environment as possible, and corporate policy dictates must be ubuntu,
but can be as recent an ubuntu version as desired (even brand new
21.10).
predictably, i suggested fedora would be a better choice, but that's
not an option given corporate choice of ubuntu for dev boxes. so the
question is, will that still provide a reasonably complete set of
container tools relative to fedora using just standard packages?
rday
6:48 p.m.
New subject: is podman (and friends) reasonably complete under recent ubuntu?
On 10/20/21 5:29 AM, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
predictably, i suggested fedora would be a better choice, but
that's
not an option given corporate choice of ubuntu for dev boxes. so the
question is, will that still provide a reasonably complete set of
container tools relative to fedora using just standard packages?
There's likely a MASSIVE difference in the QA between Ubuntu, and
Fedora/CentOS/RHEL. As in, both upstream CI and downstream
package-level testing is vastly more faithful to the actual
user-experience in Fedora/CentOS/RHEL.
I cannot speak to the distro-level testing in Ubuntu. But I would
hazard to guess that even Debian's downstream testing is very likely
superior to Ubuntu's (even if if only because it necessarily happens
earlier).
What I can say for sure is, the upstream podman Ubuntu CI test
environment is highly customized with bleeding-edge, out-of-distro
dependent packages. This is required even to get podman to build
properly. Whereas on Fedora, all dependencies are eventually hitting
the normal distribution channels. i.e. What you use in Fedora is very
close to what we test upstream.
Our upstream Ubuntu CI is really more of a very basic "Can it work"
check, as oppose to "Can it work, and function for regular users". That
part is left to Debian/Ubuntu downstream testing, which I have no actual
knowledge about.
--
Chris Evich (he/him), RHCA III
Senior Quality Assurance Engineer
My personal robot overlord told me to include this signature line.
1:46 p.m.
New subject: is podman (and friends) reasonably complete under recent ubuntu?
On Wed, 20 Oct 2021, Chris Evich wrote:
On 10/20/21 5:29 AM, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> predictably, i suggested fedora would be a better choice, but
> that's not an option given corporate choice of ubuntu for dev
> boxes. so the question is, will that still provide a reasonably
> complete set of container tools relative to fedora using just
> standard packages?
There's likely a MASSIVE difference in the QA between Ubuntu, and
Fedora/CentOS/RHEL. As in, both upstream CI and downstream
package-level testing is vastly more faithful to the actual
user-experience in Fedora/CentOS/RHEL.
I cannot speak to the distro-level testing in Ubuntu. But I would
hazard to guess that even Debian's downstream testing is very likely
superior to Ubuntu's (even if if only because it necessarily happens
earlier).
What I can say for sure is, the upstream podman Ubuntu CI test
environment is highly customized with bleeding-edge, out-of-distro
dependent packages. This is required even to get podman to build
properly. Whereas on Fedora, all dependencies are eventually
hitting the normal distribution channels. i.e. What you use in
Fedora is very close to what we test upstream.
Our upstream Ubuntu CI is really more of a very basic "Can it work"
check, as oppose to "Can it work, and function for regular users".
That part is left to Debian/Ubuntu downstream testing, which I have
no actual knowledge about.
i thought as much, i just wanted to be sure. i'll see if i can
change any minds.
rday
9:58 a.m.
New subject: is podman (and friends) reasonably complete under recent ubuntu?
Hi Robert,
Podman has been in the main repositories of Ubuntu since 20.10 (and Debian
11). I think that is a clear commitment from the community to support
Podman (and Buildah) as best as we can.
If users require enterprise-level support and stability, I would always
recommend using an enterprise distribution such as RHEL. When it comes to
community distributions, I think that Fedora has the advantage that it is
backed by Red Hat, and as Chris has mentioned earlier, there is a lot of QA
going on and a considerable amount of engineering power and expertise
behind.
But we really don't make a difference upstream; we treat all issues the
same, independent if they happen on Ubuntu or Fedora or Arch. The vast
majority of issues are distribution independent in any case and that, in
fact, is what I consider the beauty of open source: all benefit by working
together.
That being said, I would totally recommend using Podman on Ubuntu. If
there is a bug, we'll fix it upstream and then it's up to the maintainers
of the individual distributions to either backport or jump to the next
release of Podman.
Kind regards,
Valentin
On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 1:47 PM Robert P. J. Day <rpjday(a)crashcourse.ca>
wrote:
On Wed, 20 Oct 2021, Chris Evich wrote:
> On 10/20/21 5:29 AM, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> > predictably, i suggested fedora would be a better choice, but
> > that's not an option given corporate choice of ubuntu for dev
> > boxes. so the question is, will that still provide a reasonably
> > complete set of container tools relative to fedora using just
> > standard packages?
>
> There's likely a MASSIVE difference in the QA between Ubuntu, and
> Fedora/CentOS/RHEL. As in, both upstream CI and downstream
> package-level testing is vastly more faithful to the actual
> user-experience in Fedora/CentOS/RHEL.
>
> I cannot speak to the distro-level testing in Ubuntu. But I would
> hazard to guess that even Debian's downstream testing is very likely
> superior to Ubuntu's (even if if only because it necessarily happens
> earlier).
>
> What I can say for sure is, the upstream podman Ubuntu CI test
> environment is highly customized with bleeding-edge, out-of-distro
> dependent packages. This is required even to get podman to build
> properly. Whereas on Fedora, all dependencies are eventually
> hitting the normal distribution channels. i.e. What you use in
> Fedora is very close to what we test upstream.
>
> Our upstream Ubuntu CI is really more of a very basic "Can it work"
> check, as oppose to "Can it work, and function for regular users".
> That part is left to Debian/Ubuntu downstream testing, which I have
> no actual knowledge about.
i thought as much, i just wanted to be sure. i'll see if i can
change any minds.
rday
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11:33 a.m.
New subject: is podman (and friends) reasonably complete under recent ubuntu?
On Mon, 25 Oct 2021, Valentin Rothberg wrote:
Hi Robert,
Podman has been in the main repositories of Ubuntu since 20.10 (and
Debian 11). I think that is a clear commitment from the community
to support Podman (and Buildah) as best as we can.
If users require enterprise-level support and stability, I would
always recommend using an enterprise distribution such as RHEL.
When it comes to community distributions, I think that Fedora has
the advantage that it is backed by Red Hat, and as Chris has
mentioned earlier, there is a lot of QA going on and a considerable
amount of engineering power and expertise behind.
But we really don't make a difference upstream; we treat all issues
the same, independent if they happen on Ubuntu or Fedora or Arch.
The vast majority of issues are distribution independent in any case
and that, in fact, is what I consider the beauty of open source: all
benefit by working together.
That being said, I would totally recommend using Podman on Ubuntu.
If there is a bug, we'll fix it upstream and then it's up to the
maintainers of the individual distributions to either backport or
jump to the next release of Podman.
great, that makes me cautiously optimistic. this will probably wait
until deadlines ease up in late december, and i dive into setting all
this up on ubuntu 21.10. there will probably be questions.
rday
8:13 p.m.
New subject: is podman (and friends) reasonably complete under recent ubuntu?
On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 5:34 AM Robert P. J. Day <rpjday(a)crashcourse.ca>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Oct 2021, Valentin Rothberg wrote:
> That being said, I would totally recommend using Podman on Ubuntu.
> If there is a bug, we'll fix it upstream and then it's up to the
> maintainers of the individual distributions to either backport or
> jump to the next release of Podman.
great, that makes me cautiously optimistic. this will probably wait
until deadlines ease up in late december, and i dive into setting all
this up on ubuntu 21.10. there will probably be questions.
Happy to hear! (podman package maintainer for Debian/Ubuntu here)
For the specific case of Ubuntu, I'm trying using the same strategy
for packaging, so you should see roughly the same behavior (and bugs)
between
both packages (there may be some differences due to kernel and runtime).
You can check the distribution specific bug pages here:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=libpod
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libpod/+bugs
Please use the distribution bug tracker for reporting any bugs with the
packaging.
If it turns out to be an upstream functionality issue, we can always involve
upstream who, as Valentin said, has been very receptive in the past for any
kind
of reports.
thanks for giving podman on ubuntu a shot!
Best,
-rt
--
regards,
Reinhard
8:54 p.m.
New subject: is podman (and friends) reasonably complete under recent ubuntu?
On 10/26/21 2:13 PM, Reinhard Tartler wrote:
You can check the distribution specific bug pages here:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=libpod
<https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=libpod>
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libpod/+bugs
<https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libpod/+bugs>
Please use the distribution bug tracker for reporting any bugs with the
packaging.
Thanks Reinhard for the comments and links (and for the packaging work
too). Just to clarify, I wasn't intending to cast any ill-will at all,
of course we're all a friendly community here to help.
Mainly I was responding to this part of OP's request:
"...reasonably complete set of container tools relative to fedora using
just standard packages?"
ALL downstream "standard packages" (even including Fedora to a degree)
are going to lag behind upstream. Sometimes this is actually what you
want (stability vs features). However, there's no practical option to
have it both ways - it simply can't happen with human-level efforts.
So OP's experience (as all downstream users) will heavily depend on
downstream testing, and (if required) commercial support contracts.
While Fedora's podman is more bleeding edge, and heavily tested as such,
it cannot be a substitute for podman in a distro. offering full
commercial support.
--
Chris Evich (he/him), RHCA III
Senior Quality Assurance Engineer
My personal robot overlord told me to include this signature line.
912
days inactive
919
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6 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
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Chris Evich -
Reinhard Tartler -
Robert P. J. Day -
Valentin Rothberg